Follow-up: ...why specific election seems unfair

Published Saturday, March 03, 2007

The results from my previous post are in. By unanimous decision, 5 points go to Mike from Halifax, England.  (He was actually the only one to respond!)  Nevertheless, he definitely had the right idea in pointing out that contrary to the diagram, "we are all headed towards hell... [and] God has chosen us out of that line."

I had asked "What possible presuppositions represented above would certainly make specific election seem unfair and even unjust?"  In this post, I will provide one possible answer to the question.  The presupposition that stood out to me was represented by the heavy arrow pointing toward heaven.  I suppose part of the "fairness" they see here is that a man's own choice sends them to hell.

Now if you started with that diagram and then said, "No, God determines whether an individual will go to heaven or hell," they might have a picture in their mind somewhat like the following:

I can understand why this seems unfair.  They might respond, "Now according to the idea of specific election people don't have a choice, and a lot of people are going to end up in hell whether they like it or not.  That doesn't seem to mesh with the idea of a God who loves everyone."

Now I would venture to guess that the objection comes not because God specifically picks individuals to be saved.  Who could complain about that?  The real objection is that God must therefore specifically pick individuals for hell in some fashion.

How would I answer these objections?  First, I would say that we both agree on two facts: 1) there is a sense in which a man's own choice sends them to hell and 2) there is a sense in which God's choice sends them to hell.  As I pointed out in a previous post, the choice of man which sends them to hell is NOT merely the choice to reject the gospel.  If that were the case, then hiding the gospel would be in others' best interest; for if they don't hear the gospel, then they haven't had a fair chance to choose their response.  Thus by default they would be eligible for heaven.

On the contrary, the choice which earns them eternal punishment is the choice to disobey God's law.  The choice is the choice to sin.  God must execute punishment for that person's sins.  In fact, because of His very nature (and the fact that He cannot actualize a contradiction), God has no choice.  His choice is never whether or not He will carry out justice.  The choice I'm talking about is His choice to establish His Law and to establish the penalties for violations of that Law.  That was the choice that put anyone who would sin on the path to judgement.  And could anyone say that God's determined penalties are unfair?

Another part of the objection to the notion of specific election could be this:  "How could it be fair to send anyone to hell if they had no fair chance?"  So a second point to consider is whether anyone truly has a chance.  In a certain sense, everyone does have a chance to gain eternal life on their own.  The first real chance a person has is to obey God's Law.  No one who keeps His Law (all of it) will be subject to God's wrath.  Thus, this first chance is genuine, and even those who say that salvation is determined by man's choice rather than God's specific choosing would have to admit that in a certain sense the gospel is really a second chance,

However, in another sense, no one has a chance to gain eternal life life on their own.  Why?  Because everyone blew their chances through sin.  Ironically, it is the choice of man to disobey God that causes them to forfeit their chances.  They carried out their sin willingly.  They took pleasure in the defiant acts that would earn them eternal and ultimate displeasure.  Their will turned them away from life instead of towards it.

Any claims of unfairness are only hypothetical.  You would have to find a case where despite a clean record of Law keeping, God chose to send the person to hell.   Obviously, such a case does not exist.

Furthermore, to claim unfairness, you would have to say that if God gives anyone a second chance then He owes everyone a second chance.  Is God then obligated to show mercy in equal degree and duration to all people?  Are variations in mercy unfair?

My intention here was shed some light on a presupposition I came across in Bible study handout with regard to the fairness of specific election.  If you started with that diagram when considering specific election, then God's determination the fate of individuals could seem unfair.

If you're going to have a simplistic diagram showing the path of salvation, I put together what I think is a better alternative.

I welcome comments.  What are some other reasons why specific election seems unfair?

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6 Comments

Ahhh. I've been beaten by a Brit. A bit more effort and I might have gotten the five points. Was there a hidden meaning or double message in the "FIVE points?" Today, I could really use the five points.

Re: the diagrams. You can reference the original at http://www.thinkonthesethings.com/materials/Eph.pdf.

That original diagram is very strange.

When I was your age many used another diagram to explain man's sin and need for a Saviour. See http://www.campuscrusade.com/fourlawseng.htm

Things were less complicated back then. Did't even occur to me that maybe God hated someone and didn't want them in His heaven. I heard a few men debate the C and A words in the early 1980's but it sounded like a very boring topic to me. Most of us were busy preaching the good news and many were saved.

As I try now to do a little research on the five points I see that there is a lot of diagreement in the camp. The twos, the threes. the fours. the fives, the ultra fives vs the A's. Whew!

The Bible, as written, is perfect theology. ANYTIME we try to group verses into points, or topics, or diagrams, we "risk" messing things up. Only His WORD is infallible.

In sorting out issues I keep finding myself in the gospels, hanging on the words of Jesus and HIs life/actions. Am I missing someting? Do you see "special election" as you call it, in the gospels? If special election is biblical, it does not matter if it fair.

"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

It seems so simple.

Cling to the cross.

I love you, son, deeply.

~Mom

P.S. I assume you've read Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Word of God by Chuck Smith?http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/smith-chuck/books/caatwog.htm

P.S.S. Rick Manual died Tuesday AM. Pray for the salvation of his children. Karen remains strong in the Lord.

Gwen Larsen on 3/3/2007 3:03:16 PM PST

Thanks for the comments, Mom. Sorry, there was no secret hidden meaning in the 5 points.

Thanks for finding those links, especially the one to the diagram that I tried to recreate. I read through the other links you included.

I certainly don't want overstate the importance of this specific topic. I had fairly fairly narrow focus in mind in these two posts. They are a response to one common objection to specific/special election. It wasn't intended to be a general discussion on election, A or C.

Regarding God choosing individuals in the gospels, I've been taking a closer look at the second half of John 6 and the conversion accounts recorded in Acts. I may post some of what I learn from this study.

Love ya lots too, Mom!

P.S. Having read Chuck Smith's explination, it seems he would fall almost precisely into the A camp. His summarizing statements seem oriented toward refuting the perceived claims of C rather than A.

David Larsen on 3/3/2007 4:43:26 PM PST

so? when do the people in the deep Jungles of far far away who have never heard of Jesus ever get the chance to accept him into thier hearts? When is that? Thanks. Isnt it required to accept Christ as Personal Savior needed to recieve eturnal life?

Jason on 3/20/2007 10:01:49 AM PST

David,

I happened upon your blog as I was going some studying about the hate of God. It's a difficult topic, and one rarely discussed among evangelicals. But as one soneone once said of the Bible, "What you focus on determines what you miss". You are avoiding such errors by confronting the tough issues and asking the hard questions.

I'm entering seminary full time this fall in order to clear my schedule and wrestle with Scripure on a full time-basis. I'll be a regular reader to your blog as I see that you have an even-handedness to you; you have a desire to really say what the Bible means, not what you say it means.

Thank you, and keep writing!

Mark

www.scholiamergence.blogpot.com

Mark on 3/22/2007 6:06:12 AM PST

About 3 years ago I dropped into a black hole – four months of absolute terror. I wanted to end my life, but somehow [Holy Spirit], I reached out to a friend who took me to hospital. I had three visits [hospital] in four months – I actually thought I was in hell. I imagine I was going through some sort of metamorphosis [mental, physical & spiritual]. I had been seeing a therapist [1994] on a regular basis, up until this point in time. I actually thought I would be locked away – but the hospital staff was very supportive [I had no control over my process]. I was released from hospital 16th September 1994, but my fear, pain & shame had only subsided a little. I remember this particular morning waking up [home] & my process would start up again [fear, pain, & shame]. No one could help me, not even my therapist [I was terrified]. I asked Jesus Christ to have mercy on me & forgive me my sins. Slowly, all my fear has dissipated & I believe Jesus delivered me from my “psychological prison.” I am a practicing Catholic & the Holy Spirit is my friend & strength; every day since then has been a joy & blessing. I deserve to go to hell for the life I have led, but Jesus through His sacrifice on the cross, delivered me from my inequities. John 3: 8, John 15: 26, are verses I can relate to, organically. He’s a real person who is with me all the time. I have so much joy & peace in my life, today, after a childhood spent in orphanages [England & Australia]. God LOVES me so much. Fear, pain, & shame, are no longer my constant companions. I just wanted to share my experience with you [Luke 8: 16 – 17].

Peace Be With You

Micky

Micky on 5/3/2007 5:40:41 AM PST

The only hope man has is God. How scary it would be for the person who is not elect for God to not reach His hand out. God is not obligated to save anyone, but our need for Him is so fundamental. I know we don't save ourselves, but I pray the God who is Love and Justice both would look upon all the helpless, (I need to watch my language) -from birth "non-elect" and have mercy. Although we sin the minute we are born, this is because of Adam's sin. Therefore, we're born in a damaged and needy state.

If you've ever thought about having children, you might not be able to help from this playing into your decision. For example - if you believe in this, and your child could be non-elect, wouldn't it be more loving for you to not have children than to bring someone into the world who may very well be headed for eternal hell with no intervention from the only Person who can save and deliver?

dave on 9/9/2007 5:43:23 AM PST


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